* Now talking in #dbviz

<larknox> Hello!

<brians> hey

<Sid_> Hey

<larknox> I assume we're just waiting, so I have a question in the meantime.

<Sid_> Shoot

<larknox> I managed to get the CVS client that I have working to download the project this morning. Is the readme file accurate when it says that you don't need to compile anything?

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<Sid_> Umm

<Sid_> Hey Uday

<udaykale> Hey guys

<_Ross__> it doesn't say that

<larknox> There was an error about a missing class - edu.uiuc.jdbv.JDBV I think.

<_Ross__> ant compiles the files

<Sid_> Oh, thats the readme for what we delivered to the TA in CS327

<larknox> ahs - I misinterpreted then.

<Sid_> Not for developers getting it from CVS, sorry

<larknox> ok, thanks

<_Ross__> ooohhh... I thought you were looking at the dock we wrote up for homework 1

<Sid_> Well, we didn't label that that file was explicitly for the TA

* Sid_ slaps _Ross__ around a bit with a large trout

<_Ross__> hey!!!!

<Sid_> =)

<_Ross__> that was uncalled for

<_Ross__> I managed to only work 10.5 hours today! I'm very happy

<Sid_> You have a readme in HW1?

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<SandraFaust> Hello

* Sid_ grins

* Sid_ grins

<Sid_> Hi Jim, Sandra

<brians> hey

<jrarick> Hi Sid

<Sid_> Yay, we're all here.

<_Ross__> well, our half of hw1 was basically a guide on how to get started

<SandraFaust> oops, I get the sucky task this week ;)

<_Ross__> how to get cvs stuff, how to compile, practices for commmitting...fun stuff!

<Sid_> Oh, ok! *grin*

<Sid_> But did it say README, Ross? No, I dont think so.

* Sid_ is kidding

<Sid_> Ok, let's get started.

<Sid_> So I actually did write up an agenda, but just forgot to share it with ya'll

<Sid_> So here it is:

<Sid_> Meeting 12 Agenda

<Sid_> - HW2 http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/SEcourse/329+Homework+2+Spring+2003

<Sid_> - Figure out how to break into groups

<Sid_> - Split people into groups

<Sid_> - Status from team members regarding their tasks

<Sid_> - SDP, roles

<Sid_> - Testing

<Sid_> - Use Case Priorities

<Sid_> - Tasking for next week

<Sid_> _

<Sid_> In today's lecture, the Prof announced HW2.

<Sid_> It's due in one week. =/

<Sid_> We break into 2 groups.

<Sid_> Each group'll do the same thing, except with different metrics.

<Sid_> We basically pick a few "useful" metrics to take on the system

<brians> do we keep same hw#1 groups, haven't read it yet

<Sid_> find 3rd party tools that'll help us take those metrics

<SandraFaust> there will need to be 16 different metrics

<Sid_> and writeup why we used the metrics, how we took the metrics and what the results were.

<Sid_> Yes, minimum, 2 per person.

<Sid_> And we can choose different groups than HW1

<Sid_> The important part is trying to find tools, which could be difficult.

<Sid_> He mentions some Google words he used to find stuff

<jrarick> Can we get an eval version of rational's stuff

<Sid_> but then he adds the disclaimer that he doesn't know if they're commercial, and if they are, we should ask if we can get them free for educational use

<Sid_> I think there's a very slight chance you could, but not in 1 week.

<_Ross__> haha... he really thought this one out

<sobby> I think rational does have a trial version

<jrarick> I am doing a lot of work for my company's software engineering

<jrarick> I have downloaded many eval versions of stuff

<jrarick> One I am looking at is Telelogic

<jrarick> I could see if they have tools we could use too

<Sid_> Ok. Keep in mind that we have 2 groups. The difference

is that they can't use the same metrics.

<Sid_> Unless they're very general, like lines of code.

<jrarick> Right, but we could use the same tool to get different metrics

<Sid_> Course, then you have to come up with a reason why lines of code is actually useful. ;)

<Sid_> If the tools are versatile enough, definitely.

<Sid_> We'll also have to coordinate to make sure we don't accidentally use the same metrics.

<_Ross__> first come first serve?

<_Ross__> set up a page on wiki?

<SandraFaust> we can use Wiki and post the metrics ideas and split them up between us

<_Ross__> or we could do it that democratic way... :)

<Sid_> I prefer Sandra's way.

<Sid_> Not democratic. Monarchy. =)

<_Ross__> me too actually

<Sid_> Oligarchy?

<sobby> :))

<_Ross__> onlinagarchy

<Sid_> Ok, I'll setup a page on the Wiki.

<jrarick> brians, you said yesterday that you were using Rose

<jrarick> Do you have all the tools for that

<brians> not me

<Sid_> We're both Brian S.

<_Ross__> free tool at work!

<jrarick> Sorry

<_Ross__> it's aweful!

<Sid_> Ross and I have access to Rose.

<Sid_> Suckiest program...

<Sid_> I'll check if it has metrics functions (and if they work)

<jrarick> Do they have metrics tools in that

<jrarick> I have to type faster

<brians> i'll check around work, we may have something??

<Sid_> Hmm. No, I won't check it. Ross will check it.

<SandraFaust> I might be able to get it too at work

<sobby> i have access to rose too

<_Ross__> excellent

<_Ross__> I'm on it though

<Sid_> Yes, generally good idea. Everyone check your tools at

work and see if they're useful.

<_Ross__> I need something to do at work tomorrow...

<_Ross__> er....

* Sid_ grins

<_Ross__> on my breaks

<jrarick> Where do you work Ross? Do they have any openings

<SandraFaust> your breaks? :)

<Sid_> Hehe

<Sid_> Ross, if we get people to come to ATL, which of us gets the reward?

<brians> i thought you were in jersey?

<Sid_> Oh, duh... I do. I'm PM. *wink*

<_Ross__> damn!

<Sid_> We are. We aren't actively looking for developers, but we can forward your resume.

<_Ross__> you'll be there longer too :)

<Sid_> Anyway... HW2...

<Sid_> I dislike how we only have a week to plan this all out.

<SandraFaust> yes, it's tight

<Sid_> Let's try to get a tool list (with what metrics can be taken) on the Wiki by Monday night.

<brians> sounds good

<SandraFaust> ok

<sobby> ok

<jrarick> ok

<brians> can any be taken with the eyeball method?

<Sid_> Oh, be sure to list your name.

<Sid_> I think that's discouraged since we have thousands of lines of code.

<SandraFaust> we ca decide on groups too over the weekend over wiki

<Sid_> Of course, I think "grep" along with "wc" can be considered tools. =)

<jrarick> How about class depth. That shouldn't be too hard

<Sid_> Be sure to list your name by the tool; obviously we can't have a group do a metric if they can't access the tool.

<Sid_> An individual class, no. But I think we need to take metrics on the whole system.

<Sid_> So we get averages, high, low, etc.

<Sid_> afkbrb

<Sid_> sorry phone

<Sid_> Once the metrics are performed on several classes

<_Ross__> dude, where are your priorities>

<Sid_> you can see where the "trouble spots" are in the app.

<Sid_> I tried to get rid of my dad as quick as I could! =)

<_Ross__> ...huh... metrics are useful then??

<jrarick> I agree. I just didn't think we had that many classes

<Sid_> Well, Johnson thinks so...

<Sid_> I dunno..

<jrarick> You're right

* Sid_ does a lines-of-code check

<Sid_> 1393 lines with semicolons.

<Sid_> I'll put up a wiki page tonight

<Sid_> We'll figure things out during the next few days.

<Sid_> Next item. Status reports.

<Sid_> I'm going to go in the order the names appear on my IRC list. =)

<Sid_> So, me first.

<Sid_> I redid the class diagrams. So they're very comprehensive now (probably too much so) but sorta useful.

<Sid_> The package diagram needs to be updated I found, so I'll do that next.

<Sid_> Ross?

<_Ross__> I downloaded oracle and did an install on a windows box without problems (set up a database w/ users blah blah.

<_Ross__> can't use that box for the group unfortunately

<_Ross__> I e-mailed the proff. today to see if there is a box at uiuc we could all use

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<_Sid> Grrr

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<SandraFaust> hello?

<larknox> hi

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<larknox> Sid?

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<udaykale> hey guys - whats happening

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<sobby> i see everyone was kicked out

<SandraFaust2> back

<larknox> hey

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<larknox> i see 6 of us

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<sobby> I was wondering why we dont use msn , yahoo or aol..seems much more stable then this...

<Sid_> Ping?

<Sid_> Dis sux

<Sid_> Ok. For the next meeting I'm going to find a different IRC server...

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<Sid_> 7. Only missing Ross.

<Sid_> I like IRC because we get a choice of clients, and a choice of servers.

<Sid_> Ok, so maybe we don't have everyone.

<Sid_> Who was taking the log of the meeting?

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<brians> everyone still there?

<Sid_> I'm stillhere.

<SandraFaust2> i'm herer

<udaykale> me too

<larknox> I think I'm supposed to be 1 of 2; however, I assumed I could just save the transcript and I'm not sure that's the case.

<larknox> (the log)

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<Sid_> Jim? Ross?

<Sid_> Heh.

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Now talking in #dbviz

<larknox> Hi Sid

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<SandraFaust> hey

<Sid> Hey, Larry, Sandra.

<Sid> Nevermind coming here. =/ Quitting for the night.

<larknox> I saved the previous transcript

<Sid> Well, actually... I'll talk just to you two.

<Sid> Sandra... I looked at your edits.

<SandraFaust> yes

<Sid> BTW, we're not supposed to be on this server. They only want Mozilla developers. =)

<SandraFaust> didn't change much

<Sid> I think all designers should also be implementors.

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<SandraFaust> :)) we'll pretend to be mozilla devs ;)

<Sid> So the person who designs (writes the use case realization) also des implementation.

<SandraFaust> I agree, that makes sense

<Sid> Hey sobby. Officially the meeting's over, but I'll chat

anyway.

<sobby> ok...

<Sid> Also, please add me as a code reviewer.

<Sid> And we're going to have to find more testers.

<Sid> I'd like half the team be testers...

<SandraFaust> ok

<Sid> Course, we'll have to figure that list out later...

<Sid> So it's not really an edit you can make now. =)

<sobby> did you get my id for sourcenet

<Sid> Yes, you're in the team sobby

<sobby> cool

<larknox> Once I get it running (should be soon) I can start trying to do some testing.

<Sid> Sandra, you said you wanted to do more Java?

<SandraFaust> We'll update the roles as we go

<SandraFaust> last time, we changed them the last :)

<Sid> =) Well, that was wrong.

<SandraFaust> yes, Sid

<sobby> hey guys just a sec..regarding next week where is the meeting going to be?

<Sid> I'll announce that over email this week.

<SandraFaust> do you have something on the plate for me?

<Sid> Not sure...

<Sid> I've written up the list of use cases

<Sid> and requirements.

<Sid> skill requirements.

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<Sid> I think Schoudel could maybe use some help with the parser.

<Sid> Oh, you said you have SQL exp, right?

<SandraFaust> I'll check with him

<SandraFaust> yes, about SQL

<Sid> Ok. That might work.

<SandraFaust> ok

<Sid> Lessee...

<sobby> i can take the SQL work..

<Sid> Oh, officially, the meeting's over, but I'm still chatting, obviously

<Sid> and we may get kicked off since they only want Mozilla developers using this server.

<Sid> Sobby, you said you have Oracle exp, so you should prolly work on the Oracle importer.

<sobby> importer from ?

<Sid> Oracle.

<SandraFaust> Oracle

<sobby> you mean the JDBC..

<Sid> Accesses an Oracle DB thru JDBC to get the schema.

<sobby> sure i can do that..

<Sid> I don't say JDBC because you have to treat different databases differently.

<sobby> i prob. have the code somewhere..

<Sid> So the first effort will be specifically for Oracle DB's. Iteratively, we can add DB's assuming we can find a spot for em.

<sobby> what about the oracle database....?

<Sid> You have a system you can plop it on, Sobby?

<sobby> i will have to set up a server ..

<Sid> But you have the resources? Constant net connection, separate box?

<sobby> yes..

<Sid> Ok, then that'd be great if you could.

<sobby> never tried it..but let me give it a shot..i have oracle installed on this machine..

<Sid> Ok.

<Sid> Mmm, what version of Oracle?

<sobby> 9i

<Sid> Ahh, the compatible one...

<Sid> Ok, that'll work.

<sobby> now..what kind of access is required for everyone

<Sid> Hmm...

<Sid> I'd say one user who can create tables

<Sid> Well... There's all that mess with tablespaces and schemas that I never understood.

<Sid> Or is that Informix?...

<sobby> that's not a problem..

<sobby> we need one schema...

<Sid> It'd be nice to be able to use one username/password

<SandraFaust> that's oracle

<sobby> and tablespace...can be created as and when needed

<Sid> for multiple tests.

<Sid> It all depends on how the Oracle importer searches for the "schema"

<sobby> ok we can create a generic user name for everyone

<sobby> and separate for the dba's

<sobby> developers

<sobby> see a normal select command can be run by everyone..but

<Sid> Must have different logins for dba's?

<sobby> update, delete kind has to be decided

<sobby> that can be decided..

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<Sid> We won't be doing update/delete.

<Sid> We'll do create table, delete table, and select's on the system tables.

<sobby> anyhow..let me see how to do it..

<sobby> then we can decide what to do?

<Sid> Ok. That sounds good.

<sobby> then next week same time..

<Sid> Larry, how much progress have you made learning Java?

<sobby> se ya everyone... take care

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<SandraFaust> are we all set?

<Sid> Ok, guess Larry's not there.

<Sid> Yea, I think so. You'll check with Schoudel about the SQL Importer?

<SandraFaust> what did you do with your house after the fire?

<larknox> Not much progress this week - fightig the CVS client. But I remember the general ideas, just need to investigate the specific classes. And in the db class that I took we used java for some sort of embedded project.

<SandraFaust> yes, I'll take care of that

<Sid> Larry, you have any GUI experience?

<Sid> Sandra, send me an email when you hear from Schoudel

<larknox> java or html?

<SandraFaust> sure, no problem

<Sid> Not HTML. A programming language.

<Sid> Thanks Sandra. You can go now if you want. =)

<SandraFaust> have a good night

<Sid> g'night

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<larknox> Several years ago played around with java and some windows programming - more recently c code that generated html - that's about it.

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<Sid_> Ugh

<Sid_> Wrong button... =P

<larknox> hah - do you see my response?

<Sid_> No

<larknox> one sec.

<larknox> Several years ago played around with java and some windows programming - more recently c code that generated html - that's about it.

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<larknox> whoops

<Sid_> Ok. 'cuz we got a lot of use cases that require Java GUI experience.

<Sid_> Any other GUI experience would help learnin Java's

<larknox> Any small ones?

<Sid_> Programmatic GUI tho, not HTML.

<Sid_> Yea, actually there is, but it won't last long.

<Sid_> Install dbViZ.

<larknox> ok. I'll get this figured out soon.

<Sid_> Requires looking into how Java WebStart works and writing up a small report on how to make our thing use it.

<Sid_> Also, a way to package the application so it's easily installable by others.

<Sid_> One thing I saw was "InstallAnywhere"

<Sid_> I'm not sure if it's commercial or what, but it's for Java apps

<Sid_> That'd be an alternative way to install the program, if it's free.

<larknox> Where did you see it/

<larknox> ?

<Sid_> Google for it. I saw it on a Java app I ran.

<Sid_> Java Web Start is by Sun.

<larknox> ok, I'll check it out

<larknox> them

<Sid_> Part of the 1.4 JDK

<Sid_> Basically we need to know whats involved in using them

<Sid_> and if it's easy then to setup a plan to do so, and try the plan etc.

<Sid_> Ok?

<larknox> Fine

<Sid_> Ok. That's it then

<larknox> Who do I send the log to - Brian?

<Sid_> Him and Uday

<Sid_> Also need meeting minutes written up.

<Sid_> It'll be easy for this one.. Bleh

<larknox> ok. I think I got all of it.

<larknox> all right, will do.

<Sid_> Alright, later